Report against staff: Destruction of HelloMiner's historic first complete motorway/freeway

[Thendil]

If you are part of the team dealing with complaints actually read all of it, rather than reiterating your previous distain for players with the usual TLDR attitude. If you are not part of the complaints process and don’t care about reading and understanding the problem, you are not worth anybody’s time or mine and your comments are not constructive. I have no reason to be brief and have my issues sidelined.

Background

As the leading person in charge of highways and railways a while back, I implemented a new highway system to connect all the government cities and built this by hand.

The area was regioned by a number of admins including myself, with communication with all the neighbouring cities and plans for junctions and extensions if players wanted to develop that themselves.

The highways had realistic barriers, lighting, overpasses, multiple lanes, lane drops, slip roads, tunnels, flowers, terraforming to blend in. Its width made it especially easy to be driven on at speed using the server’s vehicles plugin and implemented safety measures and slabs to make it more convenient to ride on.

(Example of the style of road)

Whilst most of the network and placement was designed by me, the design was an adapted version of a design by Gurbanguly originally developed for the HMSU but with the hallmark government yellow centre broken lines to differentiate by management.

This was built before the current rules on highways were introduced and was a different category of highway due to it being the government city network.

Work started on this project 2 years ago and most of the work has been to tunnel through Narnia at the request of the owner to avoid going overground.

I was even requested to continue the design connecting up to Cudley’s RC motorway by developing it into Sunset Springs, although this eventually was not possible due to being bullied out of the department.

After much discussion, others started extending the network and it would eventually end up like this, with 90% completed:

Despite the amount of time and effort put into completing this, staff took the decision in March with just 4 people voting in upper staff to this:

I would also add, the only compensation for materials was from the area of the roundabout North of the HMSU motorway/freeway as it stretches eastwards to the coast, roughly 1,000 blocks in width.

Recent Events

In April, Nar made the decision to world edit his own connection to this highway from his city and blocked off the tunnel on his side and mine. I complained to staff and this was reversed.

I was assured that the highway would stay and me allowing gov to protect the highway by being the owner wouldn’t affect things. I would still be added as member for the roundabout region as this goes through my city.

Following April, I started to receive requests from NarwhalsRcool to strong arm me into giving up my shop in HelloClan as he wanted to roll back the area with refusal of any other equivalent plot. I spoke with another member of staff and they agreed that he should give me first refusal on another plot that was just as close if one was available - and one was. Nar then agreed reluctantly to let me swap my plot. I understand he had plans for HC but I had not long had the highways issue as well as him coming out of nowhere to take my job as HC Mayor.

Overnight from 19th - 20th July NarwhalsRcool appeared to be given free reign following a recent admin call to completely dismantle and world edit out all government owned highways following this design.

I would like to make it VERY clear, I have NOT had any communication about this from him since his previous worldedit to change the connection on his own city to this highway, to confirm this highway would be wiped out.

Complaint

As the difference between staff and player should be a supportive one, I am concerned that your staff member did not communicate on either occasion his plans to world edit out connections to my city and infrastructure that I had built. I am also concerned with the backwards direction the server is now taking with regards to infrastructure and I can no longer support the server in ways outside of my cities with the staff not being player focused anymore.

I am not complaining here about the primitive design flaws of the replacement highway, but the lack of consideration regarding the amount of time and effort put into developing all of this and to remove it without notice and without discussion, especially when you complain so much if players do it. From a design point of view, I would like to point out the design flaw of the worldedited connection to the new highway and the eyesore this has created inside the areas of my city. The connecting regions have also had my ownership AND membership revoked with some regions having disappeared.

I have also had no consideration in how I can be compensated for all the work and hundreds of thousands of blocks just to be wiped in the blink of an eye. I seriously ask how you think players might react.

This wasn’t a mistake or some spiteful reaction, this was a long thought our process over many months with NO transparency over what was happening. This is evidentiary of your staff’s lack of engagement with your player base and your obsession with closed-door gameplay decisions and discussions about petty tutorials that have nothing to do with all the other stuff you could be doing if you actually played HM properly. Yes I am angry. I placed all the blocks myself, I spent not just money on blocks but time and whilst this is JUST a game and you are entitled to do what you want with Tedde’s server, the trolls will no doubt respond to this in their usual immature fashion.

I have not been paid for any of my time in infrastructure, helping with airport applications, highways, railways, dev, being Mayor and subsequently Manager of HC either. I ask you to take that into consideration as well.

Aftermath:

Remedy Requested:

• Apology
• Thanks when someone resigns
• Government jobs for players
• Government depts to be run by players again
• For the highway to be restored, and if not;
• To be added back to the connecting regions.
• A multiple six figure sum for compensation of materials, time, network design, shoddy treatment.

[Edgewurth]

If you are part of the team dealing with complaints actually read all of it, rather than reiterating your previous distain for players with the usual TLDR attitude. If you are not part of the complaints process and don’t care about reading and understanding the problem, you are not worth anybody’s time or mine and your comments are not constructive. I have no reason to be brief and have my issues sidelined.

I’m going to preface my input with a disclaimer.

Not a member of the complaints/reports department (evidently) – but even if you consider it a ‘waste of anybodys time’ and ‘these comments unconstructive’ then that’s entirely your choice. I want to make some comments regardless, and elaborate some details which I know.

I want to preface this by saying your complaints/fustrations are valid (in my honest opinion). I want to provide a simple outsider/my P.O.V. as a member of the community, and want to provide my input here – despite it likely not making a world of a difference in your eyes, and in the decision of staff.

I’m simply a developer at this point (and Wiki Manager, but we won’t go into that), I was formerly Department Head for Infrastructure during roughly three-quarters of 2021 (from memory – lots has happened since then in my life), Highways Lead during 2022, and that’s really it for my experience in the DOI (as I know it as). Facts I may provide may be outdated, or incorrect as I’m not going to always have 100% of the information – this is just my interpretation and/or information that I know from memory at this given point in time.

Whilst most of the network and placement was designed by me, the design was an adapted version of a design by Gurbanguly originally developed for the HMSU but with the hallmark government yellow centre broken lines to differentiate by management.

This was built before the current rules on highways were introduced and was a different category of highway due to it being the government city network.

Times change. Rules change. What the highway regulations was 3-4 years ago will be different from now. You can’t expect everything to remain the same as it was 4 years ago.

I was even requested to continue the design connecting up to Cudley’s RC motorway by developing it into Sunset Springs, although this eventually was not possible due to being bullied out of the department.

From what I saw, you left the department on your own accord. I could be wrong, there could have been behind-the-scenes schenanigans which I didn’t know about. I don’t speak for the DOI or whomever was the leadership of the DOI at that point.

As the difference between staff and player should be a supportive one, I am concerned that your staff member did not communicate on either occasion his plans to world edit out connections to my city and infrastructure that I had built. I am also concerned with the backwards direction the server is now taking with regards to infrastructure and I can no longer support the server in ways outside of my cities with the staff not being player focused anymore.

At a glance at the Dynmap, the connection still seemingly exists. Not only that, but to my knowledge, technically a large percentage of staff is also technically players.

I am not complaining here about the primitive design flaws of the replacement highway, but the lack of consideration regarding the amount of time and effort put into developing all of this and to remove it without notice and without discussion…

Like in real life, when you leave a company as a leader, or a member of staff – you no longer have control over what decisions or designs are used in a product. In this case, you left the Highway and Railway division of the Government-Owned DOI, and therefore no longer have control over the design of the highway.

The fact you seem to think that because a highway borders your city and connects to your city means that you have control over it’s design is pretty much very, very silly. You had a different design to what is being used now, and staff chose to use a different design.

I have also had no consideration in how I can be compensated for all the work and hundreds of thousands of blocks just to be wiped in the blink of an eye. I seriously ask how you think players might react.

Did you keep documentation of how much you spent on the highway in terms of materials/resources, and then later send these to a member of staff? If not, then this was your own doing. If yes, then that is staff’s problem.

I have not been paid for any of my time in infrastructure, helping with airport applications, highways, railways, dev, being Mayor and subsequently Manager of HC either. I ask you to take that into consideration as well.

I’ve highlighted the important part. Developers are pretty much staff – much alike Moderators, Admins and Technicians. No staff get paid to do stuff (to my knowledge), and it’s a completely voluntary role.

Remedy Requested:

• Thanks when someone resigns

Bit big-headed, condensending and silly to expect a personal thank you for something that a staff member had done. It’s down to staff and everyone to thank, and being staff is already a thankless job. Why should staff thank you for them resigning, unless they feel like they want to (e.g. ‘Thanks for all the fun’).

• Government jobs for players
• Government depts to be run by players again

Government jobs exist for players. The Athletics Dept is pretty much ran by a committee of players and staff.

A multiple six figure sum for compensation of materials, time, network design, shoddy treatment.

Staff get shoddy treatment all the bloody time. We do have feelings too, but when we come into the role, we accept that it’s likely we’d be treated like crap. That, and you’ll get treated like crap everywhere you go. It’s a part of life (sadly) – you’ll get it working as a retail worker, as a teacher, as a delivery driver, hell even in the medical profession. As shit as it is, it’s the sad reality where we all want to be treated with human decency, but people come along and treat you like shit for one reason, or another.

Materials, cool. Time, fair enough. Network design, that should be given to Gurbanguly (who you said earlier in this post designed it). Shoddy treatment? No.

Further points

• You had acted childishly, and confronted Nars. Not only this, but also confronted me and beak for having differing opinions (yet just as valid as yours) to yours. You proceeded to attempt to gaslight me and numerous other people into believing that I had left the Congress/Senate Discord of my own accord despite me having no intentions of doing so.
• Despite my pronouns being on my Discord profile, forums signature, and having been on my nickname for a good month, and you interacting with me historically during that time, you continued to use my incorrect pronouns. I don’t act on it as much as other people, simply because 90% of the time I don’t have the energy to do so, and I’ve got more thing to deal with that that normally.
• I had only commented on the roleplay warrant, and facts which I knew regarding timelines for the Crystal Bay highway (which I had pretty much begun the work planning for during 2021 roughly). You proceeded to take these as me not taking your side, despite me making no comments towards a particular side (to my knowledge).

I apologise if I made any comments you found horrible, or upset you from my end, and if there’s any incorrect facts.

[Thendil]

I am not going to draw light to attempts to gaslight me either, character assassinate me to draw others in as unwitting fools, the community against me or attempts of active/inactive people to insert themselves into the issue, confuse the issue, or try to draw out details in which to attack me. I am clarifying further in light of recent staff comments sent privately to me, the following so when if you see an official response from staff, you will see points already addressed and clarified. I am also expecting to discuss this privately, however a public report is the only method I have to ensure it is discussed. That way this matter can be closed quickly:

Payment for staff includes helpmes. I did receive payments for being a mod over a year ago, despite being quite low. Historically, positions and jobs have been paid, however it is the incompetence of staff in an economy server not to provide this consistently to players anymore, including those memorable city demo jobs. This is about the loss of time as well as money and respect for players. In the words of Benjamin Franklin, “Remember time is money”.

I would also like to clarify that the community largely enjoyed the highway, especially when using it. No-one seriously criticised it. However, people have made comments regarding Cudley’s highway in RC, which is a different highway and is 3-laned. Off the cuff remarks by 1 player does not represent the community and if staff cared, they would have polled people, not just themselves. The admin responsible for this had a conflict of interest and even allowed myself to work extensively on the underground part of the network under his own city but never addressed with me his final intentions to get a quick three decision vote to gain full control of it and just destroy all the work. When starting on the project staff had largely supported it and had complimented me on all of it and said we can protect this for you and refund you all your blocks. I had said on multiple occasions I wanted someone to work on this as a job, but noone could agree on how much to pay players for jobs or payment was pitifully low considering server inflation. It was agreed after much discussion that this job would be paid 140k (Government Job - Eastern & Western White Gate Bridge Connection - #7 by 4K606). Much more work has gone into my project with this motorway system and really should be around 280-300k plus mats. Staff had expressed to me that the server could not have infrastructure jobs like this anymore due to the size and other servers that had large infrastructure motorways are world edited in and as I agreed with staff, world editing shouldn’t be done outside government cities, with the exception of events which require this. I honestly can’t see the community saying that jobs shouldn’t be provided and the millions in government coffers should never be touched and noone, not even players themselves can suggest ways in which it can be used and budgets given (which actually was the intention of my congress project as stated multiple times). Not giving gov jobs and just world editing in the map and new highways instead of managing an economy server, is staff apathy and new players get a sense of this very quickly. This is the first time I recall world edit being used outside of gov cities, with the exception of events and restoring the wild or chunk fixes and sets a dangerous precedent for gov jobs.

It would not have been possible to have got the permission from all the relevant parties involved and to have spent the time waiting to evict plots if it were a 3-laned, although some have said it should have been. This would have been up to staff if they wanted to expand it and as reported above they did when they wanted to extend even Cudley’s design. The size of the 2-lane one was also about making it realistic, accessible and playable with plugins.

I would also like to clarify that up until the point of its entry into RC, it was 100% carved out with terrain including mountains and tunnels all prepared for its connection to Cudley’s highway at RC. Again a lot of work.

Whilst I accept staff may steamrole over what they want and don’t want to be considered historic/past, to do so in this way is the problem I have highlighted in my complaint.

This is the principle of someone doing a lot of work on a project, that was part of one of their highway projects, spending time and money to build on such a huge scale, with a system where staff can’t get their act together and run an economy server properly and then to just without notice yeet all your work. Whilst I can calculate the amount of blocks used, this has not been considered at all when being yeeted without discussion or community input.

It would not have taken much to have said, we are going to yeet all of your work you did freely, we really think you should be compensated if we do this seeing as you allowed us to region it. How much time did it take to do it all? Or we really have seen this required effort, here’s some money based on that. We’ve done a quick /count on all the blocks of your motorway, here’s the money for that. Where do you want the design to start and finish considering you have your city regions both sides and across the motorway and a roundabout interchange.

Instead:

Just yeet, no discussion with anyone. Not even a courtesy warning, no discussion about what parts are actually mine, just taken off regions and city regions yeeted. Some regions were co-owned.

Discussions and negotiations regarding payment will not be discussed publicly, this report is made through the correct channels and discussions and has been highlighed to Tedde through a private communication channel as this involves a report against staff collectively as at the end of the day it really wasn’t necessary to destroy so much.

Yes I may have been angry at what you have done to all that work, but a request for compensation from a player is not unreasonable, especially at the standard cost for these type of projects, which post-2020 has not been possible. Before this, you used to require construction companies with multiple players and a proven track record and a bidding system but as the community largely consist of barely double digits at peak time, this is where we are. And, I wonder why.

[Thendil]

Also clarifying above that when staff expressed to be about not having large scale infrastructure projects jobs, this was not staff’s collective opinion, just an opinion from some staff that they don’t believe some players have the tenacity, staying power or attention span to complete jobs without world edit being used - despite proving them wrong by building this marvel of a highway system for them with no help outside of regioning.

[4K606]

When I demolished Sahara City I probably would not of gotten paid properly if I didn’t keep a spreadsheet of each region I demolished and what other players I hired did. I know its a bit late but I’d go through your logs the best you can to make a spreadsheet of your entire investment into the highway projects. Staff will probably be more receptive then. I’d also suggest not working in a government department anymore. They don’t have the beat reputation with giving players freedom, your always on a tight leash.

[Cheerios32]

While I don’t know enough about exactly what happened, there are a couple of general observations I’d like to make:

Democracy
There’s two simple and very good reasons why the server isn’t a democracy

• Self interest: you can see it on forum posts a lot, people consistently make decisions and opinions based on “what makes me richer” as opposed to “what makes the server better”. While not absolutely everyone does this, a good chunk of people do.
• Organisation: how do you organise debates around timezones and availablity? Is it a direct democracy or are there representatives? If there are reps, how do you keep them accountable to the people who elected them?

Staff are lazy/don’t communicate/similar
As well as being extremely busy people, a big issue is burnout. It’s pretty damn hard to motivate yourself to do stuff when you know that, even if you singlehandedly turn the server around, someone will always yell at you because they’re sad you cost them 1000 fake money in a videogame. This is so utterly demoralising that frankly it’s a wonder staff don’t quit sooner.

If your response to this is “they should just deal with it” then get some perspective; the only reason staff do what they do is to feel good for helping, which you don’t get while being yelled at for making the wrong decision on an entirely objective situation.

Alternatively, if your response is “they should just resign and be replaced”, then the question comes up: replaced by who? The role of Admin has more than enough power to do whatever they want and not be caught unless people started looking extremely closely at logs (as an aside, if you’re calling admins corrupt, remember they have dozens of ways to make themselves as rich as they want without needing to take bribes or leverage server projects to benefit them.) Given that admins have the power to nuke the server completely, there aren’t many people who can be trusted, even if they pinky promise to not cheat in millions in duped assets or corrupt the world save and all backups.

Hope that clears a couple things up.

[Thendil]

Sorry Cheerios but going into the details of these issues will not help. This is a report, not a debate. I will say democracy has been tried and tested by me and it works even with the timezones and staff have no interest in helping this because of the fact they are too busy to be involved with a minecraft server anymore or have quietly left/quit, which is why you are not seeing certain people anymore and why you are not seeing players being empowered and why they have no vested interest in playing. Tedde does not speak to his staff and this is also a problem.

I will say this in response to the staff abuse aspect, this is a problem and should be dealt with in a better way. Staff shouldn’t be abused but they should be criticised if they do something serious wrong. The amount of time upper staff have told players to “fuck off” or similar language without being checked is also a problem.

I have taken plenty of criticism but when receiving abuse from players when I was a staff member, all of the current active members of staff have said to me exactly what you have quoted that I “should just deal with it”. Then they don’t get involved in the discussion and when I am forced to take action because I’m the only active person you get jumped on because people who don’t even play the game anymore start winding the upper staff up.

They had the chanced to back me up and keep me in staff but chose to write stupid forum responses and discord responses to save face. I have every right to be critical when they have wronged me so much as a staff member and as a player.

[Thendil]

Surprisingly I actually agree

I have got a very close count of what I spent on blocks. However, this is also about time and staff being willing to compensate for something they actually allowed me to carry on doing, including working under their own city, knowing how big a job and time I took to make something that was a drastic improvement to the server highways. Anyways, they have their new updated rules on highways and the golden age of HM is over.

[Cheerios32]

(I feel it’s worth mentioning that these highways when built purely served the purpose of connecting Thendil’s cities to gov cities, at least as far as anyone could tell looking at them, as those were the only sections ever made, and closer, still important cities were ignored by these new highways)

(also if you burn all your goodwill with staff by being a complete knob continuously, don’t be surprised if staff don’t like you)

[Thendil]

A connection from HC to CB has always been a long term goal for many years.

Valleyside happens to be inbetween.

If you think other important cities were being ignored that is unfair as I had discussed with the owner of Ferron Island about adding a junction. I am one of the managers for part of that city and a bit slow due to dipping in and out, however they are in the process of redesigning their city and a request for a junction was made but we have yet to pin point the precise location of this, just a rough stretch and it was planned, but staff hasn’t considered this either. Narnia was already connected and Narwhals had redesigned this, and blocked it off and had to have that rolled back and redesigned it again. Cape Coral, NTD and someone working for the Yakaze project all requested extensions from a roundabout North of CB, Cloud City is a monument and permission was given to go around it, Charleston owners said yes to a highway but no to a bridge across the water. As it would connect to RC they would have a route in anyway but could have had a junction. We even made space South of the HMSU highway to connect to other cities in future so this could all be linked up. This was about Gov Cities, not my city, but I was proud to have it go through my city, which is both sides of the highway. Other players were keen to connect as well. It takes time and we were making progress.

I think we’re a bit passed goodwill, they don’t like building bridges or saying thank you and they only listen to themselves. Plenty have been a knob to me and players won’t respect you if you just rip up their shit and you just yell expletives at them constantly or chide them or take the piss out of their complaints. I don’t care if they don’t like me, they ignored me constantly in staff chat and had private little bitching sessions that were completely one-sided in their general staff discord. Plenty of staff I have no problems with. This is purely upper staff at this point.

[Thendil]

Just in case there is any confusion, this was a project that was discussed with multiple admin, not just a resigned admin and here is discussion with hari too:

Discussions with Luc:

Discussions with Hari:

[Luc]

I’ve reviewed the report. Majority of the post has been essentially addressed in the other report topic. In the interest of your time and mine, you can read it once instead of twice here: Report for staff: Fact checking NarwhalsRcool's lies IMPORTANT READ - #4 by Luc

Now, to address the complaint section,
To the best of my knowledge, this was communicated to you both in a screenshot from the staff discord that you were sent, a message sometime earlier this year (again mentioned in the other report), as well as the official post back in March. Additionally, there is no expectation for you to support the server in ways outside of your cities, nor has there been since March. The connecting regions for the highway had your ownership and membership revoked, as they were regioned and protected by the government, and are owned by the government.

Regarding compensation, the government has a standard policy of compensating 75% of materials for private highways, and 100% for government highways. Once you provide your quote with block costs, you will be paid for your expenses.

The transparency you say did no exist was there, however I will concede that I was not involved in the discussions with you after the March post, and cannot confirm whether or not the communications were clear.

To address the final statement - I have not been paid for any of my time as a technician on the server. I have dedicated countless hours, both up front and behind the scenes to support this server. I am not perfect of course, over the past few years as my education has advanced into graduate studies I have had to allocate less and less time, even having to take hiatuses at times. However, I have had countless sleepless nights working on fixing things for you all. I was not paid for my time as a moderator back in the day either, that was not a thing back then. You are not a saint for sharing the same enthusiasm as many other people on the server. There are no brownie points or major shows of appreciation for any person who dedicates any time to supporting this server. Regardless of if you are a government employee, a staff member, an upper staff member or even Tedde for funding this for so many years, most people will never show you an ounce of appreciation.

Remedies for Report

• Thendil will be compensated for 100% of material costs, in alignment with other government contracts
• Contrary to what you assume, I wholeheartedly agree that players should be compensated for their government work. I have been compensating players for all the work that I have contracted. As such, you will be compensated 200k for time and network design, alongside the material costs. For comparison, the originally planned redesign of that bridge/highway from rc to Avalon was for 140k, and was a much more in depth project overall.
• The current merge from government highway to your highway IS abrupt and an eyesore. This connection will be fixed and the proper road reductions will occur leading up to the connection from either direction