Rant! Basic Server Mechanism

First of all, hooray for removing of gov city warps! Even though the barn doors have been closed after the horses are already out, the situation at least didn’t get worse.

My apologies about this post being so damn erratic, but if it doesn’t make any sense, sober up and try again tomorrow.

To the topic. Here are my two cents about how the server is doing, what has been done wrong and what we have to do in order to fix things. While I do want to critisize the way staff has handled certain issues, I recognize that they have always tried to do the right thing and haven’t deliberately harmed the server. We gotta think what we would do if we were in staff’s position. It’s not easy to balance between what the players want and what the server needs. If admins/techs feel that I am undermining the job they have done, I am sincerely sorry as it’s not the purpose of this message.

Cool, to the topic. First of all we have to name the two things that define hellominers:

  1. Economy
  2. Cities

Everything else builds up from those two topics. Economy is more important as it running smoothly will allow cities to be built and people to have jobs. Things can go very wrong if staff starts to fiddle with the mechanics that make the economics run.

The basic mechanism of the server is this (pay attention now, this is important):

  1. Material gathering: Jobs, mining, farming, grinding, admin shops in GTC (government trade center)
  2. Material changing hands: Shops, trades, auction house.
  3. Material being used: Building, admin shops, terraforming etc.
    (4.) In all of previous: Player interactions and movement

Gathering is something that is done by everybody to some extend. Typically newer players get jobs from this sector as it’s straightforward and easy work to start with. Keeping gathering attractive gives people stuff to do and is an essential piece in the basic server mechanism (let’s start calling it BSM at this point). Adding features like cargo hub takes new players away from natural gathering and moves them to the overpowered government job that only spawns money and isn’t a part of BSM. Cargo hub creates inflation that increases the prices of stuff, hence making stuff more expensive for new players so it works really against them. Cargo hub also reduces player interaction in money making to zero, which should be unwanted in a multiplayer game.

Suggestion: If not remove cargo hub completely, make cargo hub only available for new players to get them started. Put a 100k bal cap for cargo hub usage. Something to keep in mind as well: Cargo hub is tedious as fuck. New players might get fed up really quickly doing it and leave the server.

People need meaningful jobs. At the moment we have the highest mod/player rate ever in the history of HM. Why not add meaningful jobs to players that require some sort of mod supervision. Some suggestions to replace the cargo hub with:

  • Communal building projects. There could for example be a shipyard that makes large ships. Some sort of RP -officer would place an order and people would actually build like a large cruise ship together. The cruise ship could be divided in a few regions and one person is responsible for their own region. Once the ship is ready it would be sailed to customer (vanished) and the rp officer would pay the workers for their efforts. The players would need to harvest the materials for these jobs so it would be an amazing material sink too.

  • A building park where new players get to go to build stuff from materials provided in a chest. They get rough guidelines what they need to be building such as “house” or “statue” etc. They make whatever and when they are ready, they can call a moderator to come review the build and pay according to some guidelines. This doesn’t contribute really to the BSM but at least it’s a job that isn’t grinding.

  • Material gathering jobs. Could be as simple as “get 640 yellow wools” or something like that. Great material sink and greatly contributes to the BSM.

There should always be a flow of materials going in the server. One way to ensure this is material sinks like GTC. Also private cities being built is a great material sink. More flow would be possible if old private cities / buildings could be just deleted with worldedit making sure that the blocks won’t end back to circulation. This could be a /helpme job as well. “Dear mod, could you please make this building vanish?.” And before you start shouting about making demo jobs disappear: who actually likes doing demo jobs and how often do you get people to do them anyway?

New cities are no longer being built. Part of problem is low player counts, but even bigger part is high city making costs. 250k might not be a lot for most of our active playerbase, but think about this: how long do you think a 10 year old will stay motivated to earn money for their own city? Oh wait, the land value is actually 500k with the new land prices as long as the city hasn’t been approved yet. Take an average 10 year old player and think how long it takes them to earn 500k if cargo hub is too boring and chestshops are too confusing. The struggle is going to be too much. A hyped 10 year old player can bring us 10 more hyped 10 year olds to bring some spark to the server. Do we want to turn our backs to these people with these ridiculous land price rules? Remove the city land value limit altogether for new players! For veterans that use this for their own benefit introduce harsh sentences.

Back to material flows. Another aspect about material flows is the gathering part. Gathering shouldn’t be too easy. If one ingredient is too easily available, it kills the market as it’s not worth buying something if you can get it yourself really quickly. Also the more different sources there are for materials, the wider the market is. Like 10 woodcutters create more market than one, even if the amount of materials gathered is the same.

Here are some examples of overpowered items that work against the economy:

  • slimefun lumber axe. If with one hit I can get multiple stacks of wood, there isn’t really need to buy wood from others, as it’s so quick to do yourself.
  • explosive pick
  • explosive shovel
  • unbreakable tools / weapons / armour

These tools also remove the need to craft vanilla tools which is drasticly affecting to the following markets:

  • Diamonds
  • Enchanted books
  • Xp bottles

Just a suggestion how to make the market flow nicely with explosive tools still being in the game:

Remove auto enchanter and auto anvil. Make a custom villager trader that trades a maxed vanilla diamond tool to a maxed explosive tool, but don’t include mending. People would need multiple maxed picks to obtain multiple maxed explosive picks and boy how diamonds and enchanted books would be needed again.

Remove the lumber axe. Also remove blaze axe. Don’t compensate.


While slimefun adds a whole load of great features, it also adds items to the game that work against the market. It makes materials too easy to get and workers redundant. Also only a tiny fraction of new players are capable of starting to study the slimefun features. It’s like pouring the cup full right away. This puts the players that know sf in an overpowered position. Not all of slimefun is bad, it does bring a lot of good content to the server. But the good content shouldn’t come at a cost of the entire server’s economy’s collapse.

Bottom line:

Staff should think about the 4 points of BSM that are crucial for this server when they are making changes to the server. Irreversible damage has been done by clueless staffers, but not all is lost.

While I personally think that we are spiralling to death, I would be happy to be proven wrong.



There’s a lot to be said, and I cant quite cover all of it. But I totally agree with some of your points. Material flows and general supply and demand is such a integral point of our server. The largest reason we have inflation is the fact there’s keep-inventory. Overpowered items we have been working to remove, however slimefun has been its own topic. I do agree overpowered items should be dialed back, hence why we did the enchant audit early this year.

But at the same time we cant really take things from players that they already own. Explosive picks and shovels have already been removed from the eco twice and brought back. We need to realize that whatever we do we cant please everyone. For example with warps we cant just make everybody happy, but we need to try something new.

We should look into things that would remove inflation or standardize our economy on the current price per dollar/goods.

We need an effective way of tracking inflation and for this I cant figure it out. We need a way of finding out how much money is being generated or put into the economy and how much is being taken out at any given time. The gov balance has been very steady for quite awhile now, which means the vast amount of money being generated is going to players, making the rich richer.

We should look into removing keep inventory in my opinion, its the only thing that would hit all of the things that are killing the server, it would fix the overpowered items, making them more valuable… as people wouldn’t want to risk loosing a 200k nightbane on a quest this would balance it, making a risk/reward benefit. Money would be flowing in terms of armor, food, fireworks, blocks, people simply would need to spend more money to make up for deaths. And how often do people die in the server anyways?

Slimefun im not too knowledgeable about so I cant comment there. These are my own opinions and do not necessarily effect those of the staff team.

I see this removing keepinventory is an issue you keep talking about, but I really can’t see that impacting the economy in any way. People will put their rares in chests and start going around in good vanilla diamond gear (like I do anyway). With enderchests people can gather materials safely without risk of losing anything.

A scenario of me dying: I fall off a building I am making somewhere in PH. Next 60 seconds I am back there to collect my stuff from the ground and I have lost only some xp.

I basically skimmed only on the keepinv off argument you made and well its a price we pay by making keepinv on we are removing risk from the server. If we get to the core of why inflation exists on HM it is due to fishing, exploitation, slimefun and a combination of different ways to make a lot of money, but it seems like there is not enough ways to lose money. And literally no one on the server is personally for any methods that cause you to lose money but doing so would make forsals much more valuable.

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At yes, do a little Phildephia Experiment.

This seems like all good ideas for communal projects (love this idea) however I believe that demolition jobs should still remain. As that is a portion of realism, as needing old buildings teared down. Most materials consist of; Concrete, Stone, Terracotta, Glass, Wool and many wooden variants to be received after teardown. And its not unusual that in the real world, some demolition jobs would save go through the building and scrap what they really need and let the rest of it be turned into dust and rubble.
But when it comes to wiping out full-scale officially deceased cities, it should come with more caution or be sponsored into a city revival program.

To work out like: (Note; this is coming off the top of my head and throwing this out there)

  • (1) Staff could vote a city (that is officially deceased) to be either be able to be “Revived” or “Denied”, essentially Denied meaning the city is either to; Deleted | Demolished | Historicize. By Historicize is to make the city permanent or buildings permanent, unable to be removed as its significant history/contribution to the server. Similar to whats stated in Rules.

  • (2) If a city is accepted as, “Revived” then there can be an on-going operation to salvage the city as in having independent/companies take ownership of a city over bid or selection, and work to repair the city. Which I believe has happened on the server for fewer cities, I don’t exactly know.

The only downside is the reliability of playercount/activity to help the city grow. Yes, you have your large companies to move in, and other business establishments. But good notable portion of all cities is simply apartment buildings, many of them empty as it’ll become a waste of a plot. Perhaps encourage city owners to create newer rules for businesses such as shops/apartments to limit some, and expand others. Like city codes.

  • However, the matter of, “the blocks won’t end back into circulation” for demolition jobs. It could provide an opportunity to sell the blocks/material back to the government and in return for profit. But who shall sale? Well commonly for demolition jobs, the materials always went to the plot/city owner most of the time as they paid the demolitionists a decent price. So it could go either way on it being resold to the Government. That way it stays out of player circulation for the time being until reintroduce to government shops.

All this Slimefun stuff, I barely experienced it except for tool usage, so I think it’s reasonable to nerf what we can and keep what we actually need. Removing keep inventory, well… there could be more of a common occurrence of lag related deaths where a player loses multiple items. And whats to stop another player by running by, and looting their dead body? Especially falling off a quartz tower thats being worked out, and now some random noob has $3,000 worth in quartz from some shulker boxes that was kept on you. Being an expense to the builder/contractor.
Accidents will happen, obviously.

And yes, some sort of measurement should be introduce to check inflation or sorts.

I love some points that you brought up, but some just make no sense to me or are just dumb imo.

Starting by the material flow: cargo port is fucking tedious and the people i see there are only broke asses that spend everything they have on casino (and then lose) go there to make something back and start gambling again. I don’t think new players are thrilled to dig sand to make money, but i do agree that it takes some of them from the route of private factories and such. But again, what else can they make? Most jobs are boring (tear down), apartment industry is pratically nonexistent and most people think building jobs are way too pricey to trust a new player into, or try to pay peanuts since its a newbie that probs wont even stay.

The material gathering jobs sounds fun, would work as material sink and could have some decent payments depending on the material requested. We could even have offices for RP, and have diff buildings for diff types of materials. Eg: make a bakery in the failed Cristal Bay and get people to work there as bakers, being paid for food produced. Unlike the cargo port tho, dont provide materials, maybe just a cow and sell some buckets, this way people have to go buy or harvest materials themselves and sell there. This could be made for different types of jobs, but its still something to think about.

Regarding private cities building getting vanished, honestly i’m all for it since i own a city (duh) and i’d love the fast work. While people might be thinking ‘‘omg so selfish, hes just giving his input for his own benefit’’. For people who will complain about their tear down company, why not have these tear down companies manage the players request instead of whining about losing market?

This could work like that:

  1. City manager contacts a tear down company and requests x buildings to be vanished.
  2. The company makes a sheet with building name, dimensions and all info needed and pass them up to mods, so when they have time they just go and woop the building.
  3. Both parties (city manager and tear down co.) pay some fees for this (lets be real using world edit for free is too good to be true), so this way the city owner will still pay for a teardown, but it will be done way faster than normal and won’t require an active playerbase for their projects do be done.

This would make the money flow go like that: city → company → government. Obviously the company would have to take its fair share of the stuff, but if we make companies to be actually useful, that would be great for the market. Heck, this whole company thing could expand to areas like landscaping, like say you need a mountain to be flattened. Or struchture building like railways and highways.

Thats just an idea to make shit faster, companies to have some actual use in the economy other than just look pretty and stuff to be done lol.

Regarding slimefun and the whole diamond/enchanted book/exp bottle drama: lets not forget that mending books are vanilla. Look into my eyes and tell me that you don’t fix your shit. Even slimefun tools break, and those that dont are hella hard/a pain in the ass to get. Slimefun adds a whole new market, with foods and vegetables, and the dusts are good since their processing generates clay (a block that we had to make a whole mob shrine to make available) and iron/gravel. I honestly don’t see any reason to touch it. Of course it had its fails, but thats pretty much to blame on staff and some greedy players. Staff’s fault is adding a plugin without knowing shit about it, and the playerbase ain’t no saint aswell for abusing it to get more rares. But please, don’t lump slimefun into the trash just because you can’t see whats good on it.

Also diamonds sales: for the love of god, WHO THE FUCK BUYS DIAMONDS??? We got mending people, the only real market armor related is selling books and exp bottles. And we got what? 10 people? I’m pretty sure everyone already has their fucking armor and tools, so if the market is dead for that honestly its just because we dont have a playerbase to sustain it.

The problems I see in the server rn are just lack of advertising, lack of events and i guess thats it tbh. Also, note to rich people: spread the fucking wealth. Instead of complaining about the economy, how about using your millions to generate income for newbies and actually help them? Hire city managers, hire newbies to do your stuff, help them because they are the future playerbase. I saw some posts asking what we had to do to get old players back, and god that scared me.

*The old players/veterans already had their time. Stop acting like boomers and wanting shit to go back to how it was, because thats not gonna happen. Instead, focus on new players needs to make them stay. Advertise, make events, open jobs, do whatever its needed to make sure they actually have interest to play.

Everything listed here shouldn’t be taken as a personal offense (well if you do thats your problem tbh), and nothing was directed to you (Ara), but to the community in general.

I love this server and don’t wanna see it die, so lets work together as a community to brainstorm how to get out of this :slight_smile:


very well-written and I agree with your points. imo if i was a new player i’d defo quit within the first few minutes, this sserver currently doesn’t have anything fun at the start. i wouldnt want to mine sand, i wouldnt want to work at a build/demo company, i wouldnt want to farm/mine because these are boring jobs and you all know it. instead, rp jobs could do that, someone already said baking and that would be a cool job, especially with SF. the other jobs would also be cool, but maybe with a way of automating the house and not making a mod see it. how about it giving you a house and you have to replicate it yourself. maybe something like “deliverer” would also be a cool job, you’d deliver certain things (lets say 64 grey concrete) to some coordinates (pretty close to where they are though) and they would have an elytra and have to buy fireworks to deliver the item

idk i just think we need wayy more fun jobs at the start, the community development dept was supposed to do this but it’s been pretty slow on progress lately, and they generally require admin intervention (as in they have to code something somehow for it to work, which means less chance of approval)

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lowkey a progressive income tax doesn’t sound that bad, taking a percentage off of monthly income (with a pretty large allowance so that new players don’t have their income taxed too) wouldn’t be that bad, especially since that money would go to gov and gov would pay for these jobs. if it happens though make it like 5% lower bracket and 10% higher

or a property tax? idk how tf that would be calculated but ofc with high allowances and generous brackets for a progressive tax

hear me out, ik it’s a pretty wild idea for a server so capitalist but if you’re making 500k in a month, maybe your 50k could go to actually helping the server because irl your shit would be taxed at 40-50%, notice how every country on earth has tax? (except maybe some random tax havens), 50k would be able to pay for 10 new player’s balances or 5-6 jobs for new players

We have come to a very critical point in HelloMiners’ future. One of the biggest problems is, at our core we were a semi-realistic economy server, and we have strayed from this big time.

Change is not bad, but the Hostile Takeover that the server experienced rocked it hard. If I’m not mistaken, this was around the time Pyrofishing was added as well as slimefun. Threw in a random server hub. It rocked our server and changed the meta forever.

New players used to join and would be entirely willing to mine blocks brainlessly, because we were a bustling place and they could tell. We used to have a variety of wealth classes, which have turned into very poor or insanely rich. Poor players would transition from noob, to employee, and eventually owner until they succeed.

Anyway. My point is, until we’re all fine with seriously rebalancing the economy, losing forsals, etc. none of this will help, because new players will join, see the stagnation almost immediately, and go find one of the other thousands of servers they were just looking through.

minecraft has changed, so has the server. i assume the server was already losing players before pyrofishing and slimefun, the peak would be 2015/16. the game also changed. people are much more focused on entertainment nowadays than grinding. there’s a reason hypixel reached an all-time peak of 100k players and the dream SMP managed to be so successful - it’s because people are more focused on actual fun now. if you were a new player, I can almost guarantee you that you would not find HM fun at the start, because right now it isn’t. sure, advertising helps, but there’s reasons as to why so few players actually stay and thats what a bunch of people don’t realise. advertising works if people actually want to play. I remember when I joined HM, I joined with a friend and then helped new players, made apartments, and aimed to buy a house next to my friend. we could really do with a referral program, some actual entertainment (it’s more likely that a player will stay if they find something fun than if they don’t and that’s basic human nature. cargo port is boring asf) and some quick touchups to other economic aspects (and the tutorial) so that players don’t quit a few minutes after joining :blush:

also the server still had like 15-20 average players after magnus left, I think more people would’ve left right then if it was the only cause, it may just be because, once again, people gettin bored of hm

To reply to ultra’s suggestion of removing keep inventory, it just wouldn’t work.

We already have PvP enable/disable commands so if someone has it on, has just hopped into agora and bought 5 stacks of quartz, someone could just kill them and yoink their stuff. You can’t spend half an hour a day dealing with people having stuff stolen because they’ve fallen off a building and someone has picked up their items.

Removing keep inventory is like removing worldguard. Why protect peoples property?

In response to the arguments that it would improve the economy because people would use regular vanilla stuff, this is exactly true but then all the hundreds of PvP items, speed items, ect. will have their value plummet because you’re making them just collectible rares. There is the no incentive for quests or events to offer anything other than collectible items which then doesn’t make it worth it for anyone other than rare collectors to participate, especially given most events these days are just mob grinds. Even there, that takes us back to my original point. You are going to be unable to balance events because some people might risk taking their expensive armour and weapons because they think they won’t die and some people will be sticking with regular diamond gear to protect their stuff. Too easy, people who bring their items are less likely to die and can easily grind it. Too hard, people with regular gear will keep dying again and again and only people who bring their kit will get good items. Furthermore, people would drop all their items on death meaning another player could just come along and pick up all their work.

If new players explore into the wild and die, they’re not going to be too happy when they’ve pretty much lost all their stuff really far from home and can’t get back within 5 minutes to collect it all again. This whole suggestion is never going to work without major compromises that will do more damage than good.

TLDR: It would be impossible to moderate and the trade-offs are unbelievably not worth it.

“cargo port is fucking tedious and the people i see there are only broke asses that spend everything they have on casino (and then lose) go there to make something back and start gambling again.”

My dumbass:

I agree on most of your points, fack dem greedy boomers.


I agree, only thing is, that a lot of people dont seem to want “for fun” events anymore, ViHQ tried hosting hunger games(a highly liked minigame that hasn’t been played in forever), he offered like 15k and an extremely rare rare as the prize, announced it a few days prior, and not even 10 players came, events just aren’t fun without enough players ;-;

Progress is slow due to 1. the 2nd designer just came back, and 2. Automated gov jobs seem to be something the community dosent really agree on, a lot of players dont like them :/.